LETTER: Horrifying healthcare ‘facts’ must be checked before spreading

Posted by

in Opinions

Monday, July 2. 2012

Comments (58)

Dear Editor:

In your June 21 edition you printed a letter concerning Obamacare that is a classic example of the importance of checking facts before spreading them. Unhappily, the author was a victim of one of those people with strong political views who will make up “facts,” and put them in a horrifying e-mail message. Because it is horrifying, the message then gets spread around the world, even appearing on the opinion pages of our newspaper.

The author of the letter asserts that, under Obamacare, no one can receive dialysis after age 75. “This I know because a nurse who had a patient had this happen to her patient and it was reported in a newspaper or the AARP bulletin (I do not remember which.)” Later the author asserted, “I understand if you get cancer after 75, the story is the same – no care.” 

This story has spread around the Internet as the result of a bogus e-mail message that attributes the “facts” to Dr. Suzanne Allen, Head of Emergency Services at the Johnson City Medical Center in Tennessee. Dr. Allen and the Johnson City Medical Center are real. You can actually talk to Dr. Allen who will tell you how upset she is that someone she knows, with a political ax to grind, used her name and attributed such utter nonsense to her. There is nothing in all 2,000 pages of the Obamacare bill that says anything about restricting care to anyone over 75.

When you read some outrageous “fact,” it is important to check the truth of the “fact” before you pass it on. Outrageous facts are usually untrue. The only fact of recent years that I can think of that was both this outrageous and true was the Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United.

I am not enthusiastic about Obamacare, because it fails to address the core problems created by the health insurance industry; but to attack it with falsehoods is unacceptable.

Sincerely,  

Agnes Appling

Trackbacks

Trackback specific URI for this entry

No Trackbacks

Comments

Display comments as (Linear | Threaded)

#1 MC Repub on 07/02/12 at 01:19 PM [Reply]

ObamaCare sets up panels to guide monetary flow of funds to different areas. Panels will in time decide what care resonable. If you have a dollar to spend and dialysis 75 yr old cost 65 cent but 3 others with diabetes one / hypertension the next and 3 rd has rheumatoid arthritis with all 3 of these in their 40's but their care cost 20 cent each or total 60 cent. Now have $130 cost and $1 to spend. That issue is being over looked. Problem is 50 yr or even 30 yrs ago most 75 yr old that needed dialysis did not receive and the circle of life had closure. My aunt choose not to have dialysis as at 80 she felt discomfort and quality of life poor. Going to sleep with renal failure to some not a bad way to go. Do I think there will be rationing of health care. YES I do. The elderly will face the issue of being viewed as economic burden just like they are in Europe. DOUBT Dr. Allen would take a call from Joe Blow to discuss this issue as most ER docs do not take personal calls.

#1.1 Runningdear on 07/02/12 at 11:13 PM [Reply]

Well said and very true.

#2 Historian on 07/03/12 at 05:54 AM [Reply]

Dear Ms. Appling,
Please research Canada, Greece, UK, et al. once there is a single payer system, rationing of care will happen regardless of age. When the money runs dry for the year for health(sick) care the patient is told their is a wait of "x" weeks or months and sent home.

The insurance industry isn't to fault here, its the oppressive vote buying schemes of politicians along with the desire of the public to have $20 copay doctor visits that have driven the cost of health insurance. This is just a numbers fact, actuary tables have been around for years that can explain it all.

#3 Virginia Moss on 07/03/12 at 08:45 AM [Reply]

"I am not enthusiastic about Obamacare, because it fails to address the core problems created by the health insurance industry ...."

Thank you Ms. Appling! Critical thinking seems very lacking in our society. As to core problems, ObamaCare is set up to address the problems of our health care system, especially cost. Those details have not yet been worked out and are to be determined by voter (representative) input as I understand it. ObamaCare is purposely unfinished for that reason and is designed for phasing in so that people and business can adapt more easily.

We cannot, as a society, pay for every possible medical intervention. The goal is to provide adequate care at reasable cost. If one wants/needs a heart-lung transplant at age 40 or 80 and ObamaCare does not cover transplants at all, then you better have the money to pay for it or die. Therefore, citizens may want supplemental insurance for themselves, just like with Medicare, to cover what the government progam doesn't.

#3.1 Tao on 07/03/12 at 02:31 PM [Reply]

Obamataxcare actually increases costs in two places; the cost of private insurance and the cost of delivering care. The only place it cut costs is to private physicians and their physician owned surgery centers and hospitals.

#3.1.1 Ms.K on 07/03/12 at 08:12 PM [Reply]

Cost increase - two places; cost decrease - two places. You've made the pronouncements, now demonstrate how these things will come to pass with ObamaCare so we can actually consider believing you. Otherwise, your post means no more than my saying you will be purple by next week.

#3.1.2 Ben Had on 07/04/12 at 05:15 AM [Reply]

You're right,Tao. The cost of private insurance will increase next year 4% instead of 9% without Obamacare.
"The only place it cut costs is to private physicians and their physician owned surgery centers and hospitals."
I'm okay with that.

#3.1.2.1 Tao on 07/05/12 at 05:34 AM [Reply]

Ben, please read the Obamataxcare plan. The goal is to drive private physicians out of business by 2022 and have a single payer system that rations healthcare. If you haven't read this law please do not continue to write incorrect information.

I can promise you the new law increases insurance costs far more than 4%, the "subsidy" may keep low for two years and then when that goes away, BOOM, nobody can afford insurance and they all run to Medicaid which few doctors take because it pays so little. so all the takers will have their precious insurance Coverage and no health care access.

I may not can speak to many things with authority, this one I know frontwards, backwards and sideways.

#3.1.2.2 Rich on 07/15/12 at 08:17 AM [Reply]

Ben - You're okay with that? How long would you stay in a profession that just cut your pay significantly. These professionals pay HUGE premiums in malpractice insurance, pal. Many make less than $200K a year. The owner of your local body shop will make that much with a good reputation and location. How many med students do you thnk are going to change their majors now? The number will be huge. Doctors are already planning early retirement or career changes - Thus the extended time to see specialists. There are dang few silver linings in this job killing tax burden. I'm afraid you've "Been had" alright. I know people from the UK and Great Britain who solidly agree that we have one of the best systems in place right now and it is heading for disaster. One who's father lost both lower legs to diabetes because he could get good timely care. He'd still be walking and working today if it weren't for the program Obamacare is so closely modeled by.

#3.1.2.3 Jim Emberton on 02/14/13 at 11:19 AM [Reply]

My wife's heatlhcare increased 115% this year. How is that lowering costs under ObamaTax Care?

#3.1.3 Tao on 07/05/12 at 06:06 AM [Reply]

Cost of private insurance:
1. Mandates to cover wellness visits. When an insurance company covers sick people there are only so many sick people, actuary tables can predict this down to 1-2%. With wellness visits the whole population can take advantage of this, overutilization. Now the insurance company must have the money to pay the provider of these services, insurance companies get money through premiums, premiums must go up.
2. Mandate that no preexisting disease can be denied. People with chronic illnesses are very expensive to the system. So people wait till they are sick and join a plan, their immediate expense to the insurance company starts out high, the insurance company must get more money into the system to pay the providers of the care, insurance premiums go up.
3. There is a tax on insurance companies in the law, insurance companies pay taxes from profits, the need for more profit to pay the tax comes from....premiums.
4. there are many more, I hope by now the picture is becoming clear.

Increase cots to provide care
1. There is a 2.3% excise tax on healthcare manufacturers. This tax isn't just on total sales of the company it actually taxes the samples given by a company to a doctor who may use them for evaluation or for his patients that can;t afford them. This equals an increase in the devices used and drugs needed for health care.
2. There is a tax on charity hospitals, think Children's Healthcare, St. Judes, etc. taxes can only be paid from income, charges must go up.
3. Increased regulation to healthcare product manufacturers can go either way increase costs to providers or reduce workforce to pay for increased costs.
4. Once again there are many more as one can imagine in 2700 pages.

I would suggest reading it twice as i have before making comments.

Reduced payments to physicians and their private centers.

The largest expense in HealthCare today from the government standpoint is Medicare. Currently less than half of its expenditures are paid by the Medicare tax and premiums. The other 48% comes from the general budget of the federal government. By law when that happened there was supposed to be a 10% per year cut in payments to physicians and hospitals for five years. Keep in mind that most payments had been being cut already since 1985, some procedures that paid $2500 in 1985 are paying $625 today. So the first cut was put off in 2010. And of course the 2011 and 201 was put off. So Congress is breaking its own law. So now 2013 is rolling around and this would require a 40% cut to meet the law's requirement. Doctors have said and some already are retiring. So the Hospitals and drug companies cooked up a deal with Obama to push through the Obamataxcare plan. What this plan does starting in 2014 is reduce payments to private physicians and their physician owned surgery centers and hospitals. It increases the burden on charity hospitals. the last thing a government needs is competition.

So starting in 2014 for ten years the private physicians payments from the government for medicare goes away. At the same time hospitals with physician employees will get more money per procedure. Once this is all controlled by the hospital who survives only on government money America's healthcare will be what Greece has today.

This is a most condensed version of 2700 pages of socialism and the elimination of what was once the greatest innovator in healthcare in the world.

I implore everyone to read this law and understand repeating the lies of the vote buying politician will not get you what you need. Only independence and Freedom allows the unfettered pursuit of Happiness.

#3.1.3.1 Tao on 07/06/12 at 11:39 AM [Reply]

Oops, where it says 48% comes from the general budget the correct number is 52%.

#3.1.3.2 Ms.K on 07/09/12 at 11:54 PM [Reply]

"Doctors have said and some already are retiring. So the Hospitals and drug companies cooked up a deal with Obama to push through the Obamataxcare plan. What this plan does starting in 2014 is reduce payments to private physicians and their physician owned surgery centers and hospitals. It increases the burden on charity hospitals. the last thing a government needs is competition."

"This is a most condensed version of 2700 pages of socialism ...."

".... understand repeating the lies of the vote buying politician ...."

".... America's healthcare will be what Greece has today."

Where did you get a copy of ObamaCare to read? It's hard for me to believe you read 5,400 pages with full comprehension. The statements above make me not view your information as reliable because you clearly have bias. I must have better sources for what I will believe. How many folks in Madison County are privy to the Greek health care system enough to know anything about its success or failure? Not me.

#3.1.3.2.1 Tao on 07/13/12 at 05:19 AM [Reply]

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/

Good reading and may your mind be expanded and filled with knowledge instead of misleading talking points.

I also have KPMG accounting firm's and a roomful of lawyer's opinions.

I'm trying to educate the public about their future healthCARE and obligations to their future generations and the taker mentality is so strong that people have turned against their own children's future. Here we are approximately 160 years after a war pitted families against each other with another issue doing the same thing. Except this time one side will be dead before their bomb explodes on their children. Cowardly at best.

#4 Ms.K on 07/03/12 at 08:48 AM [Reply]

As long as you have brought it up, what was this Citizen's United decision you're talking about?

#5 Another Redneck on 07/03/12 at 01:26 PM [Reply]

I see no cause to give to drug addict dialysis when they destroy their kidney's even if they done found religion again. I say if you gets the HIV from having the sex encounter of the week in the male toilet stall or gay who thinks OK to sleep with many men without protection I think they need no treatment. Why should we pay for them being irresponsible. Enough is Enough

#5.1 Virginia Moss on 07/03/12 at 08:08 PM [Reply]

So how does the government figure out how a person got HIV? You forgot to mention the sweet wife's husband who has sex with a prostitute, picking up HIV and bringing it home to her all trusting and faithful. And she's pregnant, so she passes it on to their child. Lovely.

#5.2 Ms.K on 07/05/12 at 04:42 PM [Reply]

"Why should we pay for them being irresponsible."

We pay to care for everybody out of a sense of moral obligation to our fellow citizens. Are you suggesting that those who cause their own health problems should not get care, like the guy with expensive diabetes whose belly-gut hangs way out over his belt and who smokes, guzzles beer and eats fatback every day and now needs a kidney transplant? Or do you prefer to let drug addicts die rather than offer them rehabilitation help? Or did you just want to make an ugly remark about the private lives of gay people? I suspect the latter.

#5.3 visitor on 12/09/12 at 08:53 PM [Reply]

what a horrible human being you are. Sociopath

#6 Daniel on 07/03/12 at 08:54 PM [Reply]

"The only fact of recent years that I can think of that was both this outrageous and true was the Supreme Court’s decision in Citizens United."

Since when has free speech become outrageous?

#7 I Want Real Answers on 07/08/12 at 06:42 PM [Reply]

I just have some questions to ask about this Universal Health Care ! I have listened to the arguments from both sides and none of it makes any sense to me and what they all keep saying sounds outlandish and ridiculous full of fallacies.
Why is something that is suppose to be so good for all of the American people being handled in the manner in which it has been handled.
We have to vote on it to see whats in it. That's kind of suspicious and fishy . Then we are told its the biggest tax in the history of America . Now I don't trust any lying government hack and probably never will . I don't think it would be wise to ever do that but that's just me.
How with so much disinformation and deceit and so much propaganda being spread about by the propaganda ministry AKA Government and the lame street media and the talking heads of the phony press ,are we ever going to get the truth . This is so wrong .
After watching our country be consumed by a war on drugs which isn't actually effecting any drug but rather people and which is a massive failure.
What kind of republic or democracy or a nation of christian s would stand for such a thing ?
Now we have a first lady wanting to declare war on obesity and what you eat.
Now correct me if I am wrong but when you no longer have the right to decide what you put in your own body , doesn't that imply that you don't have ownership of that body ? That being said if that's the case wouldn't that make us slaves rather then free people? The implication of these actions by a Government born out of quest for freedom now declaring war on its people.
Maybe I am just a nut job and its OK if you think so but I question everything I always have.This leads to my finial point . What is this health care bill really about and how far will it go to decide what we can and cant do now? Just like the Patriot Act by the traitor George Bush and now Obama back in January 2012 with The National Defense Authorization Act and now this Health Care Law. Once again Correct me if I am wrong but only with fact to back it up like I have presented here . Aren't we moving further and further away from freedom and liberty and becoming enslaved by what I like to call tyrants. Not only that but they have become so bold and in our face with it as if we cant do a thing about it. If that doesn't stir your blood and make you fighting mad your heart must have already stopped. Now we have a Candidate running for Sheriff saying he will run people out of his county .The same candidate who recently shot Illegal fireworks at his own campaign party I wonder if he had the proper permits being someone who knows that is illegal if you don't. I sure hope you did Clayton because I already know you are the wrong person for the job. Because you have already forgotten who it is you will be working for if it happens to be you as our next sheriff.
The people of this county not the state or the feds but the people of this county and by the way some of those are wanting to run out are the same ones paying taxes in this county to pay the salary for that job you want.They have us right where they want us to over in for the kill . Fighting each other over lies rather than standing together against the real enemies
of freedom and liberty .

#7.1 Virginia Moss on 07/09/12 at 03:09 PM [Reply]

This rant doesn't use all the parroting words of the gullible folks and shows some fair thinking. It does absolutely express the powerlessness of the citizens, including those citizens who don't even realize it.

"Why is something that is suppose to be so good for all of the American people being handled in the manner in which it has been handled."

Answer: Politics. The massive numbers of voters who have fallen for the talking heads of extremism have put politicians in positions that make it difficult to do the right thing if they want to be re-elected (on top of the usual self-interest of politicians). There seems to be only one way to make health care affordable and accessable to everyone and that is single-payer or universal health care like every other civilized country on our planet. But many ignorantly shout "Socialism,the Horror!" or "Government can't handle it". How do they know? What's the alternative if every proposal is shot down? So Obama is trying to make better and fairer health care happen within the structure of capitalism which does not lend itself to health care for all. That makes it highly complicated in an industry that is very complex. It could be much simpler as single-payer (like Medicare) or universal coverage and Obama knows this but he has to dance around with all the naysayers so as to please as many as he can to make it happen. The indirect answer to this question is ignorant voters.

#7.1.1 Tao on 07/09/12 at 05:36 PM [Reply]

Miss Moss,
Single payer doesn't work! Look at Canada, UK, Greece, etc. It can't work.
What works is Major Medical in the free market where people value their lives by their willingness to pay for coverage.
Medicare is not a single payer system where the burden is paid for by the recipients. The only single payer system in America is the VA system. Visit your local VA and see if that is really the system desired.

I have tried so hard to educate people on this board and people's taker attitudes just want let them see themselves as they are or the gravity of this situation. Good luck with Obamatax care when access is determined by him.

#7.1.1.1 Daniel on 07/09/12 at 10:05 PM [Reply]

I agree with you Tao. I am dumbfounded as to how the supporters of Obamacare and the single payer system will blindly allow government come between them and their health.

#7.1.1.1.1 Ben Had on 07/10/12 at 08:37 AM [Reply]

Daniel said, "I am dumbfounded as to how the supporters of Obamacare and the single payer system will blindly allow government come between them and their health"

Daniel, we blindly let for-profit insurance companies come between us and our healthcare, so, there is a precedence.
Tao is on the healthcare payroll, so I understand his motives(greed). You, on the other hand, are a harder nut to crack.

#7.1.1.1.1.1 Daniel on 07/10/12 at 03:57 PM [Reply]

I never denied a precedence but I happen to choose the precedence set by the private sector over the gov't as the vehicle between me and the doc. The fact that you and Moss below somehow believe that the gov't (an entity w/police power) can do a better job than the private sector is unbelievable. Neither is perfect (and never will be) but the private affords me more choice and freedom than what the gov't does.
Speaking on precedence's, the individual mandate tax is what worries me the most. The barrier is now down with respect to what the gov't can require you to purchase. What's going to stop some far right-wing politician from forcing us to by firearms to protect ourselves. The statistics and data are already there that proves that cities/neighborhoods that have high rates of gun ownership have low crime rates (see FBI crime rates/gun ownership). That's strong ammunition (pardon the pun) for this type of legislation.
As for your query "Tao is on the healthcare payroll, so I understand his motives(greed). You, on the other hand, are a harder nut to crack.", my motive is simple---I prefer freedom over security.

#7.1.1.1.1.1.1 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 04:11 PM [Reply]

So you are saying that the status quo is just fine. Why do so many people not think so? I've given examples of how it is not just fine. Do you think those examples are not problems or that I just made them up to make a point? I don't like the mandate and may not like some of ObamaCare, but it is an effort to fix the problems in American health care. My two questions to you are: Do you think our present system of health care is acceptable as is? Do you feel that all citizens should have affordable access to adequate health care? Can you please answer these two questions? Yes or no?

#7.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Tao on 07/13/12 at 05:45 PM [Reply]

Ms. Moss your examples are incorrect so they are not relevant to an honest conversation.

#7.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Mr.K on 07/13/12 at 10:55 PM [Reply]

And FAIL.

#7.1.1.1.1.2 Tao on 07/11/12 at 06:10 AM [Reply]

Ben, your blind devotion to the taker mentality is keeping your inner peace from being achieved. Your dear government is what drives up the cost of insurance. I hope others are not so blindly led by a nose ring that they ruin this great country further than these last three years. With information at its source so readily available I hope people will use their opportunity to vote from an intellectual position this year.

#7.1.1.1.1.2.1 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 04:51 PM [Reply]

".... taker mentality...." Such words make me close my mind to people who use them. The cost of health care became too high for almost half the citizens of this country. How exactly has the government before ObamaCare driven up the cost of that health care so much? How has government since ObamaCare driven up the cost of health care? If you say premiums increased the last two years, well that's what they have been doing for the past twenty years, usually at double-digit jumps while general inflation was going along at 3 to 4 percent. Did government cause that? If so, please explain how.

#7.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 Tao on 07/14/12 at 01:24 PM [Reply]

Dear Miss Moss there is a difference in the cost of health care and the cost of insurance. Within the realm of the cost of health care there are multiple ways to look at that. The cost as government sees it; Medicare, Medicaid, Government employees, military, etc. not related to insurance. Then there is the individual who goes to the doctor and what they pay the doctor. These are all individually negotiated plans to providers.

The cost of insurance goes up not because of the actual cost of health care because this is all negotiated before the year starts. The cost of insurance goes up due to government regulations mandating more coverage of "well" visits, screening tests, etc. Politicians do this so they can say we are forcing insurance companies to provide "X,Y and Z". They forget to tell that the premiums are going up to cover X,Y and Z. Then when the premiums go up everybody blames the insurance company. The companies don't dare say anything because then the lawmakers hose them again.

Please read, all of this information is available to everyone.

#7.1.1.1.2 Virginia Moss on 07/10/12 at 11:42 AM [Reply]

Medicare is a single-payer system. Ask anyone on Medicare if they feel that government or Medicare interferes with their health care. Then ask anyone who has medical insurance if they feel that their insurance company interferes with their healthcare. Ask doctors and providers if they feel that insurance companies interfere with the health care they are providing. You'll find that the answer is from most folks without blinders on would be "yes".

Insurance companies basically take what they are willing to allow in charges from Medicare rates and have for decades. The insured pays for anything over that in addition to co-pays and deductibles. Premiums, too, if the boss doesn't cover it. How many people are blindly allowing their insurance companies to dictate their health care? Daniel is one. At least I know how insurance impacts my health care, especially when I couldn't afford it.

Currently, those who can afford to pay are paying for themselves plus all those who don't have insurance when those people have expenses they can't cover because they get treatment anyway and the cost is passed on to the rest of us in higher charges and higher premiums. Is this fair to those paying? What happens is that when the premiums get too high for those trying to do the right thing, those people drop it and they become more people the rest of us are paying for which makes premiums go up and more people drop out which makes premiums go up which makes more people drop out which makes premiums go up ........

So, I wonder what Daniel proposes to fix the above problem. If not ObamaCare, then what? And when? It's already gone on far too long.

#7.1.1.1.2.1 Tao on 07/10/12 at 05:42 PM [Reply]

Dear Ms. Moss, Ben Had, etc.,
When a doctor stops doing a procedure because the government doesn't pay what it cost to provide the procedure what is that called? Is it rationing, or intervening? This is going on in every area of "healthcare" that government pays for the care.

I would never tell Ms. Moss how to design commercial office flow, I amazed that she gets on here spews incorrect, false, lies, pick your term about healthcare payments.

Lets go over this one more and last time from me.

Payment rates to physicians are set by Medicare.
Insurance companies then set their payments to providers based on the plan. These payments can be less than Medicare or slightly (115%) more. So if Medicare pays $100 maybe one plan in 100 will pay $115.
Most Medicaid payments are below the actual cost to deliver the care. This is why so few providers take Medicaid patients.
This has nothing to do with the cost of insurance. The cost of insurance is determined by how many services are forced upon the buyer of coverage by the government. If the government says everyone over 50 gets a PSA prostate blood test, then the insurance company builds that cost into the premium. If a man really wanted it tested let him pay for it.

There are many more inaccuracies in Ms. Moss and Ben Had's comments and I no longer believe such hard headed, small minded, selfish people are willing to look at the truth and accept it. If others want more info I will be happy to address those concerns.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1 Ben Had on 07/13/12 at 06:24 AM [Reply]

Look Tao, Doctors are hurting pretty bad right now, I understand that. Most are just barely scraping together enough pennies to survive.
Maybe if the didn't take advantage of the system things would be different now.
Example: My 73 year old Mother goes to a different Dr. just about everyday. They run expensive test that show up nothing everytime.
She is being treated for one incurable desease that she doesn't even have. They collect the checks from Medicare and schedule more visits for further testing. It's her main social activity. She is a Cash Cow for the system, and it starts with the greedy Doctor, not the government.

Sorry, but I can't make the pity party for Dr's today, I'm already sheduled to attend one for Oil company executives.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 04:41 PM [Reply]

That's exactly the way I feel about the medical industry. I have felt for at least a decade that I am merely the raw material for doing procedures, any procedure they can possibly justify, just to make money. I have been irradiated so much over my lifetime that I fully expect to have cancer before I'm over with. There is little interest in patients getting well, only in using them to apply the system of payments insurance has created. If insurance paid on the basis of wellness, things would be very different. Even if the patient were put back in the payment seat, things would be better, but the entire game is between the providers, the insurance commpanies and the government. The whole thing is a colossal mess!

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Tao on 07/13/12 at 06:48 PM [Reply]

Your mother is the exact problem with the system, overutilization. If a doctor refuses treatment he gets sued. I knew a relative or yourself was ultimate taker of the system. If she had to pay for every doctor visit then the system would not be overburdened.

So now imagine 30 million more Ben Had mothers in the system. Please people wake up.

If healthcare is what Ben Had, Virginia Moss and Mrs. K think it is, a right, then why shouldn't food be a right, shelter, water, etc.? Let them answer this question, they can't because all of their rhetoric is emotion based and none of it is factual. I have refrained from the next statement because I believe that ignorance is okay, it is only after being educated that ignorance becomes stupidity. These three have now entered the pure stupid category and they are lying to people to promote their socialist agenda. There is nothing so low as to lie to people for ones own benefit.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.1 Ms.K on 07/13/12 at 11:06 PM [Reply]

Ben Had's mother is NOT the problem! The problem is all the DOCTORS who have been taking advantage of her by advising her to do this, do that, take this and that,too, and go there and see this specialist and that specialist until they have all exhausted their lawful options with her case to make all the money they can off of her. It's your emotional investment that is causing you to read these comments in your own light only. You read with such ready defensiveness that you don't even comprehend what is written. Your offer of "education" is highly, highly suspect.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.1.1 Ben Had on 07/16/12 at 05:23 AM [Reply]

Touche', Ms.K.,Tao is obviously more worried about his personal loss of income rather than exposing the truth. Typical,very typical.

As for this statement, " Your mother is the exact problem with the system, overutilization. If a doctor refuses treatment he gets sued."
Doctors are treating her for illnesses she doesn't have, so who is the problem here? Sue? No need to sue. If one Dr. tells her nothing is wrong she just goes to the next that is more than happy to treat her.

Tao, you're getting old to me. I'm starting to believe you're not in the Healthcare industry afterall. You're too much of a liar to be anything except a politician.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.2 Ms.K on 07/13/12 at 11:16 PM [Reply]

"There is nothing so low as to lie to people for ones own benefit."

Wow! You sound really desperate here. Why is it so extremely important to you to promote your agenda and viewpoints to the point of attacking and accusing commenters on this board? You're a little freaky!

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.3 Rich on 07/15/12 at 10:43 AM [Reply]

Tao, Please keep you information coming. Many don't really understand that what is being forced on us is going to be very costly to our contry and the people who love it. The American people show NOT accept something that CONGRESS will not participate in themselves. Period.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.3.1 Ms.K on 07/15/12 at 03:24 PM [Reply]

I am anxious to know more about ObamaCare, too, but my critical thinking says I need more verification of all that Tao is saying. Why do you trust his information so blindly? His tone and desperation are a red flag of mistrust to me.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.3.2 Rich on 07/18/12 at 06:48 PM [Reply]

Why do you trust his information so blindly?

I believe your statement is a little short sighted. Having been in the insurance industry before, I can see where this mess is going and UNDERSTAND most all of the facts -> Coming from both sides mind you. I see the blind in this blog and hope that at some point you don't have to encounter what appears to be headed our way.

Ben - Just a thought. If my 73 year old mother was going to a different doctor just about every day, I'd take some time off work and go with her to find out what's really going on. You may find that the problem may not be the doctors at all. Especially if, as you say, she is "being treated for an incurable disease shoe doesn't even have." If you don't try to do something about it, you're part of the problem as well.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.1.2.3.2.1 Ms.K on 07/20/12 at 01:02 PM [Reply]

"I believe your statement is a little short sighted."

I asked, "Why do you trust his information so blindly?" That's not a statement; a question isn't short-sighted. It gives you the opportunity to expound on why you think certain information is true, correct and acceptable. If people need to understand all this, and they do, then present information that they can use. Just saying, "I can see where this mess is going and UNDERSTAND most all of the facts." does not inform me of anything. Am I just supposed to take your word for it because you are in the insurance industry so you know all about it? If you know all about it, tell us what you know, support it with sources and give us a way to verify what you say. That's a bit of work, but if you are as passionate about this information as Tao seems, why won't you do that. The last place I would trust for information on this topic is the evil medical insurance industry.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.2 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 11:13 AM [Reply]

"When a doctor stops doing a procedure because the government doesn't pay what it cost to provide the procedure what is that called?"

It's called professional choice in a free market. The provider can accept the payment from insurance, Medicare or Medicaid as partial payment and charge the rest to the patient. If the patient does not want to or can't pay, then the doctor has to chase down the payment or let it go to collections. If she doesn't want to do this, she can require payment up front or drop that patient. It's a free market; if this means only the well-off can pay the doctor, then that's who the doctor deals with. Many ob-gyn physicians have dropped obstetrics entirely because of too costly liability insurance coverage that government has nothing to do with. Does this mean that they are no longer delivering babies because government has rationed health care? No; the free market has determined this course of action. This is why capitalism does not lend itself to the delivery of health care.

I was a patient of an internal medicine doctor for 17 years when he went to what they call a concierge practice where he promised to be available 24/7 in exchange for an additional $5,000 annual payment from each patient. He would only have 600 patients instead of the 1800 he currently had. That's an extra three million dollars for him every year. Take it or leave it; I left it. Capitalism.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.2.1 Tao on 07/14/12 at 05:52 AM [Reply]

Once again you're wrong, the doctor can't say Medicare does not pay or doesn't pay what it cost to provide procedure "x". The government made sure that was against the law because heaven forbid medicare recipients find out they are not offered all the possible treatments available.

So I'm still waiting, is this rationing or interfering?

Everything I have said is based on fact by simply reading and doing research.

Everything in your posts is based on emotion or feeling or someone told me.

#7.1.1.1.2.1.3 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 11:30 AM [Reply]

"I would never tell Ms. Moss how to design commercial office flow, I amazed that she gets on here spews incorrect, false, lies, pick your term about healthcare payments."

If you want people, especially me, to take your advice then do two things, please. Drop the very ugly tone and personal attacks. Then support yourself with references to legitimate sources so a person can verify what you are saying. I know that is a bit of trouble, but that is how you would earn respect for your advice and opinions. I'm happy to know you wouldn't tell me how to conduct my business; however, I am not telling you how to conduct your business since you have not reavealed your business, which is another reason to not trust your advice. It would seem if you were a doctor, insurance administrator or were in some position to have good knowledge of this issue, then you would use that to support your opinions. Of course, you could say anything and we still wouldn't know for sure. How do you know I am a commercial space planner?

#7.1.1.2 Virginia Moss on 07/09/12 at 11:28 PM [Reply]

I'm afraid I just don't respect the "education" offered by people who use words like "ObamataxCare" or "Obummer" or similar. It reveals an extremist or ill-informed mentality. If we agree that, as a society, we don't want to see our fellow citizens dying or suffering for lack of health care, then we must have a system that accommodates everyone for affordable cost. Now, do you, Tao, agree or not that all Americans should have affordable access to health care? If so, then major medical doesn't work; that's what we have now in the free market. If not, then we make no changes and only the well-off can have health care and you are okay with that? You are comfortable with half the nation unable to pay for health care. Is that right? And is that right?

#7.1.1.2.1 Health Worker on 07/10/12 at 08:31 AM [Reply]

Ms. Moss may you join and encounter a HMO system.

#7.1.1.2.1.1 Virginia Moss on 07/10/12 at 01:58 PM [Reply]

I've actually considered that. According to Consumer Reports, many HMOs do quite well and their members are very satisfied versus people with standard insurance. I just don't like the fundamental incentive of profiting off of controlled care. Remove the profit, though, it it seems more reasonable.

#7.1.1.2.1.1.1 John Birch on 07/13/12 at 05:04 AM [Reply]

What businesses should be allowed to profit and which ones shouldn't be allowed to profit? What would be reasons for allowing one over another?

#7.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Virginia Moss on 07/13/12 at 04:26 PM [Reply]

Well now, that's one of the very fundamental questions, isn't it? Many non-profit hospitals and providers do a good job of taking care of patients without the incentive of profit. Should companies and doctors profit off of sickness (or off of wellness)?

It strikes me as a bit of a moral dilemma to profit off of sickness, injury and even death. But this is a capitalistic country; whatever the market will bear, right? I think we now know where that line is. As a society, we are at the point where health care is for those with the means to pay for it. For those who can't, what? Do we all go together equally to pay for them? Or do just the people still paying for health care pay for those who can't? Or do we exclude non-payers to suffer and die in the streets as they beg for money? Or do we pretend that charities can manage to coordinate with one another nationwide to take care of all of the non-payers? Mr. Birch, what is your solution? Or do you think there is no problem?

#7.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 Rich on 07/15/12 at 10:34 AM [Reply]

Moss - No doubt you heart is in a good moral place, but do you really think a hospital that touts itself as being a non-profit is truly that when they have $50 to $100 million dollar expansions? Did you know they can write off as much as 10% of the charitble care they provide? Also, that their non-profit status makes them tax exempt for much of their earnings? This is why when you recieve a bill from them they show you how much they discounted the cost of your care, so they can in turn write this off from our government and collect one heck of a check at the end of the year? Tell me those folks don't get tested from one end to the other. Sounds like a good business plan for these "non-profits".

Look. PROFIT is YOUR purpose as much as it is ANY business owner in America. Do you have a positive balance in your checking account? Savings? If so, why? Have you moved from on job to anouther at some point in your life to make better money? You know, to increase your profits and standard of living. How are health professionals any different. Their costs are freaking HUGE. Does it not make sense to you that these healthcare professionals MUST constantly stay up on their continuing education? They MUST continue to buy the most up to date equipment? That they MUST continue to purchase supplies at constantly increasing costs? They MUST continue to give raises to their very dedicated employees? These non-prfit hospitals you speak of doing a good job, HAVE TO do a good job or they can get sued as well. I was just charged $27 for Tylenol at a non-profit hospital. Seems as though they are legally dipping into our pockets by simply changing their tax status. Brilliant, eh?

For the record. Obamacare is going to smack the non-profits around a good bit too. You see there are taxes to be sollect there as well and with Obamacare - Control is the socialist/Liberal agenda. Thank a capitalist for what YOU have today. Socialists and Democrats want control and a check. Capitalists and Republicans want a PAYcheck and freedom to choose.

#7.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 Virginia Moss on 07/15/12 at 03:48 PM [Reply]

Rather than address your ideas and opinions to me directly, please just state your ideas and opinions to all the readers here as your comments are of value to people other than just me. As your comments have a strong political bias, I can't take your unsupported positions as acceptable to me.

I only said that the health care that non-profits dispense is just as good (or bad as the case may be) as a for-profit provider so there is no difference between the two. I do know that non-profits get tax breaks and all that. In the discussion of ObamaCare, such is mostly irrelevant anyway. There are bigger problems to solve.

As to profit in my business, it never enters my mind. I am the only person conducting my business and all I want is to make enough money to live on, save for retirement and have emergency savings for the lean times. Any technical definition of "profit" does not concern me in my business. It may concern my accountant, but I am completely ignorant of anything having to do with income tax forms or rules. I made that decision long ago and have been much happier since. I want to see that monster slayed as soon as possible!

#7.1.1.2.2 I pay on 07/21/12 at 08:30 AM [Reply]

If half nation doesn't pay for health insurance, they chose not to buy it. Not my problem. It sounds more and more like there is fear your beloved social healthcare, medicare, might be taken away.

#7.1.1.2.2.1 Virginia Moss on 07/21/12 at 02:45 PM [Reply]

"Not my problem." Well, that would depend on whether or not you have medical insurance.

If not, most doctors won't take you as a patient; most providers of other medical services won't either unless you pay in full up front. That leaves the beleagered, overwhelmed hospital emergency rooms where people have to wait sometimes all day to be seen. Many of those waiting cannot pay and the care is "different" for those without coverage.

If the uninsured patient comes in with a really bad headache, they will be given Extra Strength Tylenol and told to go home to see if it gets better. With insurance (or maybe a good credit card or a humongous wad of cash) that patient will be asked more detailed questions and will most likely get an MRI or CAT scan looking for a blood clot or aneurism which is causing a stroke. They will gladly be admitted to the hopital given what is found. The uninsured goes home to have a stroke without care. That's one problem. This information comes from an aquaintance who is an emergency room doctor in Savannah.

Here's the other problem. If you do have insurance coverage, given to you by your job or paid for by you (group insurance) or paid even more for, if it is an individual policy, then your problem is that part of the cost of your barely affordable insurance premiums is paying for all the people who get medical care and don't or can't pay. Additionally, the charges that you directly pay to medical providers when you need them, including hospitals, reflect the addition of those costs they can't recover from non-payers, so you get to pay for them as well as yourself. This is not new; it has been going on at least a half-century.

Before Medicare, all doctors were expected to do a certain amount of charity care, mostly old people with little income. They were glad to be re-imbursed for that care when Medicare came along so that they could quit passing that cost on to their paying patients. Why should only paying sick people pay for non-paying sick people? Being sick or injured is enough of a burden already. Shouldn't society at large, instead, all contribute equally to this charity care so no one group is overburdened?

If that answer is yes, then how do we do that in a way that is fair to everyone and that utilizes capitalism? That's an oxymoron, of course, because, like life, capitalism is not fair; there are no guarantees. But ObamaCare is attempting to meld these two ideals. At the core of ObamaCare is the participation of all citizens in order to spread the risk as wide as possible so that each person's cost is reduced. That is the fundamental foundation of any kind of insurance. In addition, it wants to reduce the health care industry's high cost by way of nationwide efficiencies like a system of digital medical records.

If society at large should not be required to pay for the medical care (or anything else) of those who can't or won't pay, then what do we do with all our fellow injured, sick and dying
citizens? Do we continue to individually pay ever-increasing costs of our own care plus that or others through the cost of our own care? If so, then each time a person drops coverage or can't pay a bill, the rest pay a little more. But then that's too much for some so they drop coverage (whether it be an individual or a business); then they can't pay large bills on their own so the rest pay more, which pushes more people and businesses to drop coverage which ups costs, which pushes more out, which ups costs...........

I think it is the many people like this poster who don't have the big picture in mind that are the reason for the resistance to fixing this problem. They simply don't think that there is a problem.

#7.1.1.2.2.1.1 Payor on 07/25/12 at 06:16 AM [Reply]

My experience has been very different. When I go to a doctor or MRI facility and tell them I do not have insurance however I am willing to pay to Medicare rates they are more than willing to work with me.

The statement that charity care is funded by insurance premiums is incorrect. Your insurance payments to doctors is prenegotiated and has no relationship to the providers caring of indigent patients. When doctors treat patients with no money it comes directly out of the doctors pocket, when hospitals treat indigent patients it comes mostly out of the taxpayers pocket. Obamataxcare will not change this.

The obamataxcare plan is mainly to solidify funding for the large voting block of seniors on Medicare. Those being promised expanded Medicaid coverage will not get any better care than they already have access to and the taxpayers are going to get huge increases in taxes to pay for over utilization. This is already well documented with Medicare, I.e. Ben Had's mother.

#8 Athens on 07/12/12 at 01:31 PM [Reply]

HMO : helping mortality occur

Add Comment

Name
Email
Homepage
In reply to
Comment: E-Mail addresses will not be displayed and will only be used for E-Mail notifications.

To prevent automated Bots from commentspamming, please enter the string you see in the image below in the appropriate input box. Your comment will only be submitted if the strings match. Please ensure that your browser supports and accepts cookies, or your comment cannot be verified correctly.

Enter the string from the spam-prevention image above:
Phone*

What is two plus two?
: Remember Information? Subscribe to this entry
: Submitted comments will be subject to moderation before being displayed.

LETTER: Horrifying healthcare ‘facts’ must be checked before spreading

MadisonJournalTODAY

LETTER: Horrifying healthcare ‘facts’ must be checked before spreading

Recent Stories

Recent Comments

Sister Sites

Archives

Community

Keyword Tags